Raising energy on virtual calls

Anders Boulanger If you take something that's big and make it small, or take something that's small and make it big, you look like a genius.

We are analog creatures, and yet we live in a digital world.

I also talk about a boring-to-annoying line. We always are so afraid that we are on the annoying side of this dichotomy. And the reality is we're mostly on the boring half of it.

Jen Weaver Welcome back to Live Chat with Jen Weaver.

I'm going to be really honest here and tell you that if you only listen to one episode of my podcast, this is the episode.

Today I'm speaking with Anders Boulanger. He's the founder and CEO of Engagify, where he helps companies make their customer-facing teams and events more engaging. His book, Engage First, is out on October 7th. I got an early copy and I devoured the whole thing on a plane. It's a spiritual successor to How to Win Friends and Influence People, but for the modern era. I highly recommend it.

I was delighted and a little bit starstruck to talk to Anders. We dig into how to use his techniques — developed through his experience with close-up magic and trade shows — for support leaders to engage their teams. Spoiler: if you engage your team members in your meetings, it means better retention long-term for your whole team. The stakes are high here, but this is a super fun episode, and I just know you're going to love it.

Before we get started though, our QA tool Supportman is what makes this podcast possible. Supportman sends real-time QA from Intercom to Slack with daily threads, weekly charts, and done-for-you AI-powered conversation evaluations. It makes it so much easier to QA Intercom conversations right where your team is already spending their day, in Slack.

All right, on to today's episode.

This is a total new thing for me, because you wrote a book and I just read it and we're going to talk about it. Your book is called Engage First, is that right?

Anders That is right. And thank you so much for reading it. It hasn't been released yet, so it's kind of cool to talk with people who have read it. So thanks for having me on.

Jen That's cool for me. I hope you're ready, because I have a lot of thoughts.

As you know, our podcast is for customer support managers, that's our audience. A lot of the struggles that they deal with are managing up — how do I convince leadership to implement things, or to hire — managing reports, and how difficult it is to create team cohesion. And on that note, remotely, because a lot of the audience is managing customer support virtually. In my career I've had managers and direct reports who I'd never met in person.

So I think you have a lot of tips that would be great for that. And actually, I have one queued up that I loved from the book. You talk about props — and you are a magician, so obviously that's a thing that you do.

I worked with a manager — she wasn't my manager — who used a single prop. I don't know how she did this, to create such team cohesion. I was at a retreat with them, and after everyone had gone to bed her team was up laughing, all in a room together. I passed by and went in, and it was all about this little hand she had brought in. At the retreat she had given everybody one of them. It was some kind of team mascot — it just became this funny thing that they all rallied around.

Anders Yeah, those are so funny. The tiny little hands.

Actually, one guy I talk about in the comedy chapter is a guy named Richard, who does a lot of MCing for Engagify. He has a pair of those little hands that he brings with him wherever he goes. He'll say, "Come on, let's have a big hand for our last presenter." And then he'll go, "That wasn't a big hand, that was a little hand." He pulls that out — and there are so many opportunities for that little prop.

I read somewhere — a friend of mine told me about this — if you take something that's big and make it small, or take something that's small and make it big, you look like a genius. So that's just kind of fun and cute because of that.

But the application of props is that there is an interest factor there. I love science, I took a physics degree. But I remember when I'd walk into the science room — I was from a small town, so every class was in the same room, whether it was chemistry, physics, or biology — you walk in there, but you saw something set up on the bench that was going to be a demonstration, or something that we're going to try to recreate. And automatically you kind of go, what's he going to do with that stuff?

Same thing as a magician. I grew up watching a magician with all his props on stage on his table. I'm a magician, so I'd be more interested in that, but I'd be like, what's he going to do with those?

You walk by a street performer who starts setting out his props to music. He hasn't even started yet, but you start going, oh, I want to see what he's going to do with those torches. They're going to be lit on fire.

So you're seeding some sort of moment that's going to happen, and it sets up a story loop in their mind. They want closure of that. And so they pay attention.

Whether you're trying to get a team on board, or just to listen to you — using a prop as a visual aid that's not PowerPoint, using a prop as a metaphor for something that you're trying to lead your team through.

And the idea of something that fits in your hand actually has a greater psychological impact. When you just held up that little hand again there, Jen — I know what that hand feels like. It's rubber and it's squishy. And because I have experience with that, there are parts of my brain that are lighting up.

If I was holding a pen, most everyone has held a pen. When you see someone doing something that you have done, part of your brain — the mirror neurons — fire, and we actually feel connected to that person.

So these props aren't just about making things cheesy. There is something about them that unites us and connects us and will make our presentations more relatable. Whether that is a Zoom call where you're having an all-hands, or a team meeting, or you're trying to do a keynote — the props are powerful.

Jen That reminds me, I've seen some YouTubers just have a whiteboard and draw instead of doing a PowerPoint. I wonder if that's a great hack as a support manager. If I just need to draw something out, I can do it physically with a pen and paper that somebody else knows what that feels like, and kind of create that mirroring.

Anders There is an analog thing to it too. We are analog creatures, and yet we live in a digital world.

A slick slide deck is nice, and it's to the point. But sometimes — and I've been doing a lot of this — I use my iPad and I will share a drawing. So the drawing is still kind of digital, if you will, but you're seeing every pen stroke. And it's messy.

Jen It's in the moment, though, too.

Anders Right. When you explain something that's in the moment — it's not something you say all day — you're being present for that person. You're co-creating something together. I'm making this for you. This is not a slide deck I pull out and use all day long.

It's that back-of-the-napkin, impromptu feel. But there's also something about drawing that draws people in, which is that they don't know where you're going with it. You really have to pay attention, because you're trying to make sense of that thing. So there are a lot of engagement principles built into that that is unique, different, and kind of fresh again, because we can do this now.

Jen What that's making me think of is, in your book you have this triangle. And since we're talking about drawing, I'll just do this — I mean, I love a good Sharpie.

So you talk about, at the bottom, text communication. Texting with somebody. And then just above that is using emoticons, which have some face to them. But at the very top is working in person with somebody.

I thought, as I was reading this, about how there can be tense, difficult situations when you're managing people. And I think escalating to that better, more in-person version of communication is always a good tactic when things start to feel maybe a little tense.

Anders Oh, for sure. That triangle, or pyramid, is this hierarchy of communication.

If we just think about text — if we're texting back and forth, or an email, there is a bit of a time delay too. You're reading it a little bit after, depending on whenever you pick it up. And depending on the choice of words you use, there are things you can explain and you can do it — but I'm sure your listeners have all been in a position where they're like, this is not coming off good. You're starting to ask ChatGPT to rewrite this. You're wanting to address something that maybe is sensitive and you just don't want it to be taken the wrong way.

And then the emojis are a way of doing that. Winky face and all the like — and I'm not even all up on all the emojis any more. But the idea that we can at least add some tone to it. "Don't take this the wrong way" is what we're saying. Take this in context.

We go above that, and we've got the voice conversation. Actually, because we were having trouble with my video before we started recording — that's all you had for me at first.

So at least now we're hearing how people say something. If you are dealing with something delicate, that tone of voice is powerful.

My wife will go back and forth in text with her mom, and I talk about this in the book, and I'm like, just call her. Sometimes the amount of time we save having a two-minute conversation, as opposed to stretching out that conversation over hours.

So that understanding that when we hear a voice, we're reassured. We can support them in a way. And it's real time — that's the first time we get real time.

Now we're going virtual. I'm watching you and you're nodding your head. If it was quiet and you were just nodding your head, I'd be like, Jen, you there? Hello? But you're nodding your head, I can see you're engaged, you're in agreement. There's positive body language there.

So virtual is obviously as good as we can get without being in person.

Jen And that would be at the top.

Anders Right at the top. And so how can we elevate our communication to that level that is going to be the most effective for the situation at hand?

I'm not saying you have to jump on a virtual call or jump on a plane and meet with someone in person for everything. But there are certain things that getting to the top of that pyramid is going to be better for.

Jen What I love about your book too is it opens up these questions for me. Sure, I want to be virtual and I want to do the best I can. But sometimes I don't really know what I'm doing, or I don't know how to handle a real in-person meeting, especially about something that's a little tense.

And you kind of close that loop with — well, the hack is to have an intention. If I'm going into a meeting and I'm just in this meeting doing the best I can, then it's nerve-wracking. But if I go into a meeting and my intention is to move this person from a place of disengagement to engagement, then I'm tactical. Then I really know what I'm doing, and for me it's calming.

You also talk about taking on a persona as a way to perform, to be in a meeting and be calm. I think they're related — I'm doing something here that gives me an intention and moves me through the event.

Anders I think when you focus on others, that helps get you out of your head in the first place. You're there to serve them, whoever's in your meeting.

And to do that, sometimes we have to be things that are greater than ourselves — or maybe what we think is greater than ourselves, but it's actually in you.

So that persona piece. We talk about Sasha Fierce being Beyoncé Knowles' alter ego. And for the guys who were basketball fans, Kobe Bryant — his was the Black Mamba. They were names for a different side of themselves that they would show when the chips were down and they needed to really bring it.

I know from Kobe's point of view he was so ultra competitive that he was almost nasty, and he had to remove himself from that. So there was some kind of psychological safety behind that.

I think we don't have to go that far. But it's the idea that we sometimes have to bring a little part of ourselves out that maybe we didn't know we had.

I've done an exercise with people where I will assign them an avatar. So if someone's kind of monotone and it's hard to pay attention to them — you have to have some awareness to understand that — but in our trainings and coaching I'll say, you're going to be the kindergarten teacher. So you're doing an opening of a meeting or a presentation, but you're going to do it like we're kids. How would you keep our attention?

And now that person, you'll see their modulation is all over the map, and they're like, "Hello, Jen! So good to see you and everyone here on this virtual call!"

So it's bringing a part of them out, and also giving them permission to be a little bit different — to be a little more performative, just to do something.

And this is a rehearsal technique. Directors would work with actors because they're trying to pull something out of that person, and then they would just go do it normal again. If we were practicing, I'd go, no, forget we did that, just do it. A little bit of it sticks behind, and it adds a little bit more modulation, and it makes it better.

And then for some people too, when we get feedback from a group, they'll say, "How was that?" And everyone's like, "You should do it like that all the time." You might think that you are annoying, and how modulated it is, and you're embarrassing yourself or whatever — and everyone else is going, that sounded awesome.

So sometimes we need that little tap on the shoulder, and that self-awareness, and giving ourselves permission to work on ourselves.

Again, we're talking about actors, we're talking about performers, athletes. They think about this stuff and they do this. But sometimes we're so busy in our jobs, we're just head down and shut down and just do what we've always done, and we get what we always got.

Jen When you're virtual, it's the only interaction you get. This is the only me that people on my team know, or people listening to the podcast.

And you also say — and this was new to me — when you're on camera your energy needs to be, I don't remember, 30% higher, just for it to feel normal.

Anders Because the camera kills the energy. You're by yourself in a room.

I did a lot of virtual keynotes during the pandemic, and the time you'd be taking applause, it's like — and then we just turn it off, and you're alone in a room. That's a weird feeling.

The story I tell in the book is that I had to do a virtual trade show invite video. They wanted people to come to their virtual booth, and there was this video. Virtual trade shows, that was a really weird time.

But anyway, they said, "Hey Anders, we want it to be peppy, we want it to be high energy." And I'm like, do you guys know me? Come on, I can do that.

And I'm recording it in the same studio that we're doing this call from. It's like a 30-second little message, and I'd watch it back, and then I went — huh, that's not that peppy. I could use more. Even though I felt like I was over the top.

So then I started realizing, wow, you really have to kill it to actually get where you think it should be when watching it back.

And so, again — I also talk about a boring-to-annoying line. We always are so afraid that we are on the annoying side of this dichotomy. And the reality is we're mostly on the boring half of it. Most of us never get over to that side.

I'm saying the extremes: the extreme of one side is boring and the extreme of the other side is annoying. And there's a sweet spot in the middle for everyone. You kind of have to find that sweet spot.

When we've coached people up and said, hey, I think you could bring a little bit more — they realize that gets results. They see it in people leaning in, people paying more attention, people not off-tasking and on their phones. Hey, this is working better. That's that pat on the back that performers get as feedback, to know, oh, this is the right level I need to be at.

So we're often coming underneath what we think we should be delivering. We've got to actually over-deliver just to get where it needs to be.

Jen Thirty percent, you say.

I've experienced that with podcast guests or with colleagues who just show up and have a lot of energy and are excited to be there. I rise up and match that.

And you talk about mirroring and matching, which I've heard about before — if someone crosses their legs one way, then subtly I might cross my legs their way to entrain with them. But virtually it's a little more challenging. You talk about modulating the speed of your voice to match the other person's, or the tone to be deeper or higher, matching with them to trigger those mirror neurons so that they're with you.

Anders It is a lot more difficult in virtual, and this is one of the reasons why it's not at the top of the hierarchy of communication.

I can only see you — we can see the same amount of ourselves right now. I could move back a little bit more and you'd see more of my arms.

And there's also sometimes — I'm walking towards my camera, for the people just listening — getting right up in the face of the camera, and we're like, whoa, okay, give me some space. It almost feels like we are in your face even though it's just in the camera.

So it emulates the in-person, but we're missing things. We're not breathing the same air here. I had friends that were comedians trying to present during the pandemic to virtual audiences, and you can't hear every little gasp or laugh. The feedback is not there.

And when you're one-to-many — let's say you're managing your team — to develop rapport with each individual is kind of impossible in a sense. If it's one-on-one, we have a good talk, Jen, we're going to be vibing, there's a certain wavelength that we resonate on. But one-to-many, you might be good with one person but not hitting the other person.

So there is a shotgun approach you can do, and we talk about group rapport. I don't know if I cover this in my book, but group rapport is when you get people to all do the same thing at the same time — whether it's something with your body.

I often do this thing, and because we're recording, we'll do it together. Put out your hands like this — a little bit of a magic-y thing — put out your hands, so your hands are about six inches apart, your thumbs are up like that. Okay, we're going to turn our thumbs down. And then we're going to put one hand over the other hand and interlock our fingers. So we're kind of locked out like that. And then lock out the elbows, Jen, so they're straight like that. That's good.

Now, do exactly as I do. Breathe in. Breathe out. And then do this up to the top. Twist those.

So, for people just listening — Jen's all locked up. I was able to do it, she wasn't able to do it. Even though it looks like we did the very same thing, we got a very different result.

And so I often use that little experiment — okay, Jen, release, let go.

Jen I'm done.

Anders Stay in the moment.

I often use that at the start of a talk or a training, because everyone will be in this mindset of, oh, here we go, another one of these.

And it's a pattern interrupt, because they're like, I don't know what we're doing. We're using our hands as a prop, in a way. But at the same time, because I'm forcing everyone to do the same body movements as me, we are all connected in that sense.

So if you are speaking in person and you ask an enrolling question — how many people this morning brushed your teeth, raise your hand — everyone's going to put up their hands. It's a dumb question. Ideally it's a little bit more driving some value for the talk. But I got everyone to raise their hands at the same time I'm raising my hand. So we're mirroring and matching in that sense.

There's also something called stealing rapport. That works best where let's say there's an MC and someone's on stage. If the MC is very likable, you want to start where that MC introduced you. You take over that spot, that spatial area of the stage that was occupied by the MC. You want to speak in a similar speed, in a similar tone, even if that's not you — just to start out. And everyone will be like, I like this person, they seem like — I'm going to give them a chance, I'm going to listen. And then you can gradually come back to yourself, or go where you need to go.

But if the MC is horrible, you want to do the opposite. You'd go to a different area of the stage and you'd speak differently, and everyone's like, oh, thank goodness. I'm glad it's not like that person.

That works a little bit more on a stage in person than virtually. But there's some fascinating psychological stuff about rapport, and really trying to bond with people and have them bond with each other too.

Jen I'm already thinking about some hacks you could use with virtual calls.

In your book you reference another book that has a list of ways to hook people and get them engaged. That's on my list.

Anders By Thiagi — they call him the mad genius of training. He has a bunch of different unique — just kind of like, what are we doing here? People ask themselves that question, but then there's relevance to it and there's an aha moment.

And when people have ownership over the learning and that aha moment, they figure it out for themselves — it's so much more impactful than just saying, do this, this is the right way to do it.

So if you're managing a team, and you need to train them on something, or just as an icebreaker — those "jolts," by Thiagi.

Jen We'll link to that in the show notes.

You mentioned relevance, and that's something you talk about a lot. I've had the painful experience of being managed by somebody who just doesn't get what's important to me. Who maybe tries to motivate me with salary — which I love, everybody loves money. But I know for me, and for people who have taken the time to get to know me, my ability to choose my own work and to really have an impact are what motivate me.

I think that's what I was thinking about when I was reading you talk about relevance. If as a manager I'm trying to motivate my direct report but I don't know what really motivates them, then I'm completely irrelevant. And I think that's a huge bridge between being an entertainer, being an infotainer, and being a manager. You have to give a message that's relevant to that person.

Anders For sure. If the relevance isn't there — relevance is like an engagement hack. It's the whole reason for actually doing whatever you're doing.

Being able to motivate — typically you can break down motivation into something you don't want or something you want. And if you can find those things, because some people are better motivated with the stick than the carrot in front of them. Or the carrot can be different types of carrots, kind of like you're talking about. The right type of work, the right type of compensation, or the right amount.

So finding out what your audience wants is a big one.

In our trainings, just to condense some of that stuff in the book, we use an acronym called SAVE-U. And SAVE-U is: if you are not getting the engagement, this will save you. You fall back on this.

Jen I know this is something people pay for, I've seen this on your website. So this is a little bonus value.

Anders The S is simple. Making it simple and easy to follow.

We spend so much energy in our brains — it's only 2% of our body weight but 20% of our energy goes to our brain. So it's a real hog on resources. Whenever people get overwhelmed, cognitive overload, this idea that it's just too much, they tune out. They start thinking about what they're doing after work.

So keeping things simple, that's good. And my original acronym for SAVE-U was longer, and I'm like, I'm not even following my own directions here.

The A is authority — and it can also be authenticity. How do you carry yourself? One of the classic undermining things that people can do — and I'm sure we'll see it with managers as well — is talking with too much uptalk at the end. Some intonation, so everything starts going up at the end of their sentences, and now everything sounds like a question. It doesn't sound important, because it sounds like — well, are you telling me or asking me? And it's confusing.

That's just one little example of how we can be a little more authoritative. And when I say authoritative, I don't mean a tyrant. It's just that who the message comes from and how it's delivered is just as important as what is being said.

The V is visual, auditory, kinesthetic. When we're talking about rapport, there are people who are more visual — they talk with their hands, they're going to say "you see what I'm saying?" That kind of thing.

You've got auditories who are going to use words that have to do with sound. "Does this sound good to you?" Or "that rings a bell." They might even be a little bit more melodic with their voice, they might be musical.

And then you've got the kinesthetics, who are sometimes a little bit more slow speaking. They're in their body. A lot of dancers, athletes might be like that.

But those people — if you just talk with whatever your preferred representation system is, if I'm visual and all I say is "see this, see this," you're turning off some people.

So when we talked about this shotgun approach, to create rapport with all of those people that are on a call with you — again it's different one-to-one, just use the one they are and that's going to connect them. But you're going to want to mix those types of words just to keep everyone engaged, and play to that audience.

Then the E is emotional. And whenever I say emotional, it's not like we're crying, or we're trying to make people feel sad. But it is good to make people feel something.

The tone of our voice, whether we're really excited — you hear a little bit of saliva in your voice and you're excited, it's going to rub off on people. Whether you're making a joke, you just giggled, you found that humorous, you're feeling something.

I think certain work cultures, certain companies — I know I've worked for them at trade shows — they might be so buttoned up that it's just all business, business is all logic. We are living, breathing, feeling machines, and we need to acknowledge that. But also, let's harness that. Make people think, but make people feel.

And then the U — the whole reason I started talking about this — is you-focused, meaning the relevance piece. If it matters to the person that you're meeting with, then that's important content to keep them engaged.

Again, it goes back to evolutionary things. Am I being chased by a lion? That is relevant, I need to know that. Is there something good to eat? I need that to survive. If it's going to hurt me or it's going to help me, we want to know about it. And that's going to be that good focus piece.

Jen There's an exercise you recommend that I think is super relevant for support managers. Counting the "you"s and the "me"s in a meeting — maybe one I was in with my direct report — and running that transcript through ChatGPT. How many times did I say "you," "your," "what's going on with you," and how many times did I say "I," "me," "mine"?

It's sort of like the AI note-takers now that will tell you what percentage of the meeting you spent talking. That's one thing. But how much time have you been talking about what that other person needs and is interested in?

Anders Definitely. That is something quantifiable that we can look at. Are we focused on the right person? Because it feels good when people are talking about us and concerned about us and asking about ourselves. So it's a great way to support your direct report and really make sure you're giving them what they need.

Jen There's a real business case for that too. Employee engagement is a hugely important metric for businesses, and it comes directly from our one-on-one calls. How engaged are you with your manager? Like they say, people don't leave a company, they leave a manager. So getting more engaged and more you-focused with your direct reports has a direct effect on the bottom line for the company.

Anders One of the neurotransmitters that drives engagement is dopamine, and then the other one is norepinephrine. Dopamine is the reward, the novelty. And the norepinephrine is the stress. Again, that goes back to that evolutionary thing — am I going to get chased by the lion, or am I going to get something I want?

And if you as a manager are spiking the dopamine — whether it is talking about them, whether it is rewarding them — dopamine is how people get addicted to their phone, this is how they get addicted to drugs. There are these things that fire off in our brain.

So when we create engagement, meaning being engaging, wanting people to watch us and listen and pull that content. But in terms of being engaged with your manager, there's a lot of similarity there. How can you get people addicted to you, even though you're there to help them?

And again, this goes back to — we're usually so worried about what we're going to say, the content, that we don't give as much thought to everything around it. All the window dressing.

You just mentioned ChatGPT — knowledge itself is getting very cheap. ChatGPT is free at some level. The idea that with an internet connection you can ask AI whatever you want, or you can look up whatever you want.

So now it's not so much about the knowledge, it's about how do we transfer that knowledge, how do we communicate so that it is received. And that's the Engage First philosophy — we can't do any of that until we engage first.

Jen I totally recommend your book for digging into that. It's eminently readable, I zoomed through it, I love it. I'm implementing some things.

There was one thing in it, in getting more engaged and being more human and less replaceable, and that's humor. It's really tricky, and you mentioned that too — it's hard because you can offend people, or it could just not land.

But there was a trick that really hit home for me, and that was calling the moment. Can you teach us that?

Anders Calling the moment. It's when you're experiencing something with a lot of people and no one's really put their finger on it, and you just kind of say it.

It doesn't actually have to be terribly clever. You just are the one who said it out loud, and everyone's like, oh yeah. And they totally relate. And that thing may have even been causing some tension, and when you say it, it releases the tension — and hence laughter, hence a feeling of connection.

One of the examples in the book is, I was going down a very narrow escalator, and I felt like my hips almost were touching, and I'm not that wide of a person. And I said, "Wow, can this escalator get any narrower?" And everyone on the escalator laughed.

There's not a lot of intelligence behind it, there's not a lot of wit. But sometimes just saying something out loud that calls the moment — people unite behind that. And it's usually a harmless thing in that sense. It's just a situation we're in, and it's the truth.

Truth and pain are the ingredients to comedy.

Jen Truth and pain. You've definitely inspired me to dig into that further and to experiment and record what worked and what didn't work. I think doing that as a manager is really great. Can you speak to that a little bit, and then we'll wrap up?

Anders You mentioned already the transcripts, and throwing them in ChatGPT. The idea that we have this ability to have our own coach. You're managing your direct reports, and yet you can self-coach in a lot of ways with those transcripts.

I often, when I'm looking at performances, or at the end of the day, I write these after-action reports — which is stolen from Navy SEALs, from military. "After-action report" sounds cool. But it's just, hey, what worked well, what didn't work well, what's still lingering, what's a stretch goal for next time?

The feedback that performers get is instantaneous. And in the corporate world, we just don't get that feedback. Depending on your listeners, how often they're meeting with their direct reports — that feedback is valuable, and how it's delivered. But just getting some in the first place. A lot of people go through life going, how am I doing? I don't know.

So that idea that we can give ourselves our own feedback. And look back when you have that one-on-one with someone — what were your notes from that last meeting for yourself?

Jen That becomes data you can look back at over time. How engaged was this person?

Anders What worked, what didn't. Because then you start realizing — are they the carrot or the stick kind of person? What did they respond to, or did you try something?

And I often talk too about, when you are doing something all the time and you've got that mastered to a certain level, what is that next level for you to take? What's that next intention to take with you?

Sometimes I've been at a show and I'm like, I'm really going to be thinking about my body, how I move. I want people to watch how I move. And that's the one thing I bring in, because everything else I've kind of got. What's that extra layer of complexity that we want to add on, instead of just doing the normal thing? That constant, never-ending improvement.

There's always opportunities. But we sometimes just need to look in the mirror and make the decision to want to improve.

Jen That's really inspired me. I hope that I didn't launch into this podcast with too much energy, but I really took that to heart, and I was like, I'm just going to have energy this time, I'm going to just bring it. So it's already changing how I'm working.

I really appreciate you being here and sharing your book ahead of time with me. Comes out in October. That feels super special, I really appreciate it.

Anders Well, thank you for bringing the energy, Jen. Because we are feedback animals. You doing that pumps me up, and then I bring it, and that keeps you up.

As we are that pebble in the water and the ripple effect of how we interact with people — if we only knew how we impact people. And that's the sad thing, we sometimes never know, we'll never hear. And how that then can impact others.

So yeah, I appreciate you bringing me on.

Jen You've had a huge impact on me. Thanks for being here. I hope everybody has enjoyed this, and I look forward to working with you in the future.

Anders All right. Thanks, Jen.

Jen This has been a super special episode for me as a book lover. And I actually came away from recording this with a lot of ideas — not just about how to uplevel my presentation skills, but my whole attitude about life.

So I want to run through those steps for how you can be a better, and I think happier, leader by engaging first.

First, using props to spark engagement. Bringing a tangible item to meetings can be humorous or symbolic, but it's memorable. It doesn't have to be tiny hands.

Two, choose the right communication level. Think about that pyramid — text, audio, video, in person. We want to move up the pyramid as much as possible.

Three, set a clear intention before each meeting. If you define the outcome you want, like moving this person from disengaged to engaged, it calms your nerves and sharpens your presence.

Four, turn up your energy by 30%. On video calls it will feel like too much, but it often lands as just right on camera. If you've seen me on this podcast, I am turning up my energy. So if you feel like that's just a baseline, think about doing that too.

Five, adopt a persona to guide your performance. Use a mental avatar like "kindergarten teacher" to unlock different versions of yourself. This can help you with nerves and self-expression.

Six, anchor your meetings in relevance. Before delivering information, ask, why does this matter to them? That old "what's in it for me" idea. Motivation is very personal to individuals — if you're motivating a team, think about them specifically.

And seven, review your meetings for your you-versus-me ratio. That will really level up your engagement. After a one-on-one, check that transcript. How often did you say "you" or "your" versus "I" or "me"? That balance speaks volumes about who you are prioritizing.

I hope you've enjoyed this episode. It's been fantastic for me to connect with Anders. Please do subscribe and share this podcast with someone you think would benefit from it — that does a lot for me as a creator. And I just hope I'll see you next time.